GodMen, Mark Driscoll, and more of my scattered thoughts...

I've read blogs, articles and thoughts on this current movement towards the masculinzaiton of the church. I am pretty sure that this is another "phase" which will soon pass and be a memory.  I was alarmed a bit as I read the article in Newsweek titled Real Men Talk About God by Eileen Finan. This article highlights a movement out of Nashville that seeks to create a worship space where guys can be guys. 

As I read the article my reaction was one of awe. It seems to be another simplistic attempt to grapple with a very real issue, that women out number the amount of men who go to church in the United States.

Rhett Smith wrote a great post, "The Feminization of the Church? hmmm...." back in April, and I appreciate his thoughts very much. I would encourage you to read it.

I attended Mars Hill church in Seattle, WA where Mark Driscoll is the pastor. Driscoll waves the flag high for masculinity in the church.  Many articles have been written, discussing the popularity of this church where Driscoll is a proponent for traditional gender rolls in the midst of a secular culture.

During his sermon in the series "Vintage Jesus: How Human Was Jesus?" Driscoll tangented into talking about how the evenings go at his home.  He shared that when he comes home, the Driscoll boys wrestle with their dad.  He went on about how manly it was for them at the Driscoll household to watch Ultimate Fighting together.

I liked what I learned of Mark Driscoll as I sat in the 2nd row of this Warehouse Hip church, Mars Hill. I flinched though, wishing he would express a broader definition of masculinity and not create such a narrow space for men to live in.

I find myself reacting in a protection of men who do not like sports, who don't have an interest in Ultimate Fighting and who may not ever desire to watch an episode of Jack Ass. As a girl raised by a man who is an Eagle Scout, Scuba Diver, Backpacker, ER Technician, Elder in the church, Youth group volunteer, Off pitch hymn singer, Science enthusiast, lover of all things nature...I have a significant understanding that masculinity is not defined as narrowly as some would like. 

As I left Mars Hill, my friend looked at me timidly and asked "so, what did you think?". I told her the truth, that I really liked the church and that I felt like they were much more socially liberal than I had expected. I kinda expected to feel suffocated by some of the fundamentalist theology I also had expected. I did not find it.  I did however, find some immature interpretations of gender rolls that I wished to have been expressed a little better.  Why can't a man's masculinity be expressed in music, hiking, running, writing, art?" i asked her. 

What I did appreciate was that Mark Driscoll had qualified his statement by saying "at our house we..." and did not say "you all should..."  However, in his position where his congregation is naturally going to seek to emulate his example, he must be careful with these old stereotypes that have been entrenched in our culture for hundreds of years. 

Back to the Newsweek Article, as a woman who works in the church, on an almost all male staff, I am well aware of the patriarchy that still resides in the fabric of the church culture.  What is so feminine about that?  Perhaps my experience has always been with male pastors who have a healthy egalitarian approach to women in ministry and the church.

I think the problem is found more in how we engage our culture to transform. If church is tame, diluted, and neutered of it's power, then it is of no appeal to either gender.  I think that much of this hypermasculinization movement is very sexist at it's core.  I watched the clip on the MSNBC site and found the song to glorify and worship testosterone, not Jesus.  The man did not seem to resemble Tim Allen, but seemed to be awkwardly leading a cheesy service with some flashy bells and whistles to shock some people into being "men" which will do no good accept to do damage to the women they love and the boys and girls they raise.  Gender differences, sure....but traditional gender roll rewind...oh geeze!  I really hope this GodMen doesn't catch on with too much vengence. I bet Jesus would want his money back if he went because he wouldn't be the topic...but sex therapy would be.

Comments

[Will]

Kristie, thanks for your thoughts. While MH does seem to push the narrow masculine button quite hard from the pulpit sometimes, I assure you if you listen to a few years of the sermons, attend the boot camps, and get to know the men involved in the church you'll see that not every guy is taught to have Driscoll's personality. While as a general rule I do tend to respect men like Pastor Mark who have bacon air fresheners in their trucks and spend all their time planting churches and writing books on theology, I think that you'd have no trouble finding a guy at MH who is like your dad. In fact, most of the guys I'm friends with at MH, including some of the elders, are more of the "Eagle Scout, Scuba Diver, Backpacker, ER Technician.." sort of guys.

I'd say what is emphasized at MH most clearly is the doctrine of headship; that a man shouldn't be a lazy wimp but should be about responsibility, redemption, and Christ-like sacrificial love. Being a church that holds up so often an open hand and a closed hand, you're likely to find plenty of guys with sound doctrine *and* well-rounded lives.

[Kristie Vosper]

Will, I appreciate your thoughts. I live in LA and was only visiting Mars Hill while in Seattle. I've read a lot of articles in various magazines and websites. I had expected to really dislike Mark, but I was very suprised. I could see myself being friends with him...and I might roll my eyes a few times as you do with friends...but I liked him. He seemed warm and caring. I am amused by the bacon air freshner and there are enough pastors that remind me more of Barry Manilow than Adam Corolla. I'm glad to hear that you see a well rounded approach to masculinity being upheld at MH. I hope that will be better publicized in the media as MH is portrayed in our culture.

[KC]

Excellent post KV! So true.

[Veronica]

I wouldn't think that GodMen will catch on like, say, the Promise Keepers did in the 90's. For one... since when is whining about plants an act of manliness? In other Manliness Movements, stated that men needed to step up to a plate they had willfully abandoned so as to pursue secular goals... these guys seem to be saying that lame-o girls and even lamer girly men, despite being wimpy and feminized, somehow managed strong-arm the manliness from Real Men(TM).

[Rhett Smith]

great post Kristie

rhett

[Lars Rood]

Wow great post. I have been to Mars Hill and have read quite a bunch of Marks stuff. I don't agree with him on a lot of areas but haven't been able to articulate always what I don't like. You have done it in a way that affirms much of what they are doing but have done a great job of sharing a different view. I think your view of masculinity is refreshing and something I connect with.

Thanks,

lars

[Gary Means]

I found your blog while looking for more information on Mark Driscoll. I live in the Seattle area and have been following the recent controversy surrounding Mark's recent blog comments. He was on the local news tonight attempting to defend his position.

I have heard stories of his misogynistic attitudes for quite some time. So tonight I did a little more investigation. I've put up two posts on my blog that reference two articles on Mark. One is from a local paper, the other from Salon. They include many quotes from Mark.

Especially interesting were ideas like this: "Women will be saved by going back to that role that God has chosen for them." (having babies and being quietly subservient to their husbands)

"Every single book in your Bible is written by a man... Priest[hood] is reserved exclusively for godly men.";

"There is no occasion where women led a society and were its heads and the men complied and followed. ... It's a matter of Biblical creation.".

Mark also views childbirth as an important form of growng the church and encourages all women in the church to quit their jobs and to have as many babies as possible. Here's a quote from a woman in the church:

"My life is much harder, not easier, now that I'm a Christian," she says, clenching her teeth against [her infant daughter's] droning whine. "We had originally planned not to have kids, but now we have to do our best to repopulate our city with Christians....."It's not what I ever imagined," she tells me, "or even what I ever wanted, but it's my duty now, and I have to learn to live with that."

[Jared Still]

Hey Kristie,

Just came across your comment over on Rhett's blog...I think back in July.

I'm sorry I didn't reply, guess I didn't get back to that post after the first day or so. Please forgive me :)

Your characterization of Jesus was perfect. And I thank you for that. And being that sanctification is God’s way of extracting from us, a more Christ-like heart, producing an evermore Christ-like life, I think we should expect it to look much different for us all as believers. I we agree on that, I think we can agree that masculinity and femininity, combined with personality and sanctification, will look different for people within the constructs of God’s genders.

I think you’re right about Driscoll communicating masculinity narrowly sometimes. I’ve never watched a UFC fight and don’t like fight scenes in movies, so some of his stuff is lost on me. But in general, I guess I just “get him”. I served in combat with all sorts of men around. I love my “band of brothers” and am by nature a very ‘fraternal’ type of guy. I also cry with my girls and my wife…so my masculinity might not look like everyone’s either.

I also think that the Church has defined or laid out an expectation of masculinity that is just as narrow as many would see Driscoll’s to be. I feel there’s a large segment of the Church and Church academia, that has an expectation of its own values of masculinity. That men are to be only meek, that they are to be only forgiving and never fighting, that men are to be only turn the other cheek and not defend or pre-empt. I hope you get my heart when I say, I “get” what Mark Driscoll is preaching. I don’t feel the problems in the Church and our families and our culture is that men are too strong. I think many men are way too weak, passive, indecisive, non-confrontational and accepting…and hide under post-modern cloaks of tolerance and acceptance.

I tell you this in the hope that you understand that I see Driscoll the man through a different lens…but came to defense of Driscoll the preacher & teacher. I feel his teaching is so faithful to scripture and the movement (Mars Hill, Acts 29, the Resurgence) is so important, I hate to see the Church get caught up in shooting its own. Hope that makes sense.

I understand why people have taken offense to some things that Mark Driscoll has said. I do. Some of the things were offensive. No doubt. I don’t feel I’m some sycophant, just feel I’m fair and honest to the whole body of the work I’ve read and heard from the man.

I think it’s pretty strong to warn that I not make a man an idol. He’s a great Bible teacher & preacher. I love his faithfulness to the Word. But he’s just a man. I loved Ted Haggard for his preaching, teaching and what I perceived of his marriage to Gayle, for years as well. While I love what I hear Driscoll preach week-in and week-out, I don’t know that I have him in any place of idol in my life. I mean, I love my Dad with all of the love that a son could ever muster, but I don’t idolize him either…far from it. He’s just another sinful, fallen man. When he’s done with his race, if I am given the grace of God to outlive him, or view it from Heaven, I hope that both my Dad and Driscoll have run great, beautiful races. But until then, I understand that in even expecting godliness from a man admire, I may be let down as with Ted Haggard.

But I did feel called to defend Driscoll. I don’t agree with the characterization as a misogynist or a teacher of a violent Christianity. That’s reckless gossip to me. And frankly, for quite a while now I’ve been increasingly bothered by the “teams” that develop in Christianity, that you can almost depend on to hammer on one guy and love another. You’ve got the missional, emergent crowd with its heroes and leaders, you’ve got the various Seminaries and denominational affiliations…and painfully obvious allegiances within them. All of these constructs by the way, are institutions of man, or loosely codified ideas of man. We need to be careful not to be too ‘religious’ in our affiliations and keep it all focused and preaching, teaching and living Jesus’ transformative power…through His love and grace.

It may be a little off-topic, but I don’t understand the offense to the Ted Haggard blog. And not to justify by implied association, but I’m not alone in that. I’ve talked to many men and women that say, “yeah, we see it in our Church with men AND women.” He clearly wasn’t talking about Gayle. It was an observation and judgment about some pastors wives. (With a really bad choice of words, timing, forum in my opinion!) I think many that share the point of view are reticent to share less they run afoul of the sensitivity police. Even in sharing this, I debated internally because I don’t want to appear to be the ‘insensitive jerk’ that’s subconsciously labeled as such and dismissed within Christian circles because I’m not offended…and take the risk of sharing my views honestly.

I have always loved your heart Kristie! So glad I found your blog. I pray you’re well, and so blessed…and I really, really mean that! :)

Peace & love

jls